Official Luthiers Forum!

Howdy. I'm on a new adventure, fashioning my first ever nut for an Epiphone AJ-500M acoustic I got dirt cheap on CL. It came w/o nut or bridge, so I've purchased TUSQ replacements.

Could someone possibly recommend some decent nut files (or better yet, send a link) to file the nut on this guitar that will do the job for a reasonable price. StewMac is far too rich for my blood.

Thanks Very Much,
CL

Though not specifically for nuts, the needle file set at harbor freight will get the job done @ $10 for a one-off. Unless you intend on doing a lot of builds and/or setups, I wouldn't bother. On the other hand, a starter set is available on eBay (Chinese junk, but what isn't these days?) for $20.

LMI has a 3-file set for about $60.

Glenn

You'll need other tools to do the job and even buying the cheapest possible it will add up fast. May I suggest taking it to a Luthier and having the job done right from the onset. A proper set up will save you a lot of headache if you don't have the proper tools or experience.

-j

If there is any chance that you will be nut making again I would consider purchasing the Stew-Mac gauged nut files in the six sizes that match your preference for strings. They are not at all expensive if they are getting used, they are expensive if they won't get used and I get that.

I'm doing some ghost set-up for a reseller of brand new instruments that this reseller believes will sell better if they are professionally set-up and advertised as such. He's not keeping it secret either and is in fact touting that we are doing set-up, superb set-ups to quote him... and sees it as a value add and I could not agree more. It's how I spend mornings lately doing a couple or several of these set-ups and a lot of fun too because the instruments are brand, spanking new and very clean....

Anyway long story short the f*ctory is not using proper nut files and is instead using something like an X-Acto set of files. These files produce "V" shaped grooves which results in every single string binding and not being able to move freely when tuning. So you tune and tune and nothing happens and then you hear a "ping" and the pitch jumps more than we might wish all at once. One of my tasks is to both reshape the nut slots as well as make them an appropriate size for the likely gauges of strings so it can be tuned without the ping noise and annoying jump in pitch.

Or, in other words, it's simply cutting the nut slots correctly with Stew Mac gauged nut files. I'm bringing this up because this is a direct case of nut slots having to be redone because someone is using X-Acto type files for an application that they don't work well with.

I get that what might be justifiable for me and our business because of our volume and the expectations on us may not be necessary for others with much less occasional use. But what my example does indeed highlight is the fact that the quality of the cut and ability to size slots properly is not there with the inexpensive alternative. More specifically dedicated nut slot files not only work better unless one fashions their own files in specific sizes I don't see how anything else at any price can even work as well.

Sometimes it's easy to see the nut as one last unimportant detail before she sings. It's more accurate to see the nut as a very important part of the user interface to the instrument that will have bearing on playability, intonation, appearance, and tuning stability. Might be worth rethinking the spend here, no?

I have never had any luck with Cheap Tools. I also use a gauged set of files. I like the ones LMI has . Also I have heard good things about the nut file saw. The ones that I find the most useless are the torch files and rilfer files sold on ebay as nut files . If your going to do this more than once invest in the proper tools . Good tools are an investment cheap tools are a cost.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I like that John "good tools are an investment cheap tools are a cost." Very well said! I'll add that good tools can be purchased once and used for a lifetime!

The Stew-Mac gauged nut slot files do wear out though but only after hundreds and hundreds, likely thousands of times providing great service.

Again too Stew-mac pricing in respect to the value delivered is very good IME. It's easy to sit and judge price when we just can't know what it costs to bring a decent tool to market and then have a very limited lifetime market for that tool. The same applies to LMI in my view too. Making tools for Luthiers is not exactly an endeavor that has people beating down your door to buy them.... Kind of like being the Maytag repairman - a lonely business to be in.... That is of course before Cesspool bought Maytag.... Me.... I'm not opinionated.....

PS: With gauged nut files you can also notch G*bson style tune-o-matic saddles, notch mando and archtop bridges.

Depends what you call inexpensive. If you are at all serious about repair, good ones are a no brainer.
Mine are Hosco, set of 10 = $106 (google is your friend http://www.philadelphialuthiertools.com/luthier-tools/files/guitar-nut-file-set-10-files/) are what I use.
Work well, accurately sized (digital calipers to check) and the thinner ones I superglued strips of ABW along the sides for support.
I bought mine in on sale in UK, and the link is the first I found on your side of the pond.

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Purpose made nut files are great, but back in the 70's when I started the only thing available were needle files. If you are careful, you can make an acceptable nut with them. Use a razor saw for the unwound strings.

We use Grobet files -- nice $10 - $13 each they are single edge.

I have to say that early on I used the hobby file and results were pretty darn good to excellent. And that I believe is possible if you are aware of the goal and the parameters. The repair persons can correct me, but what I saw/see in a poorly set up nut often are slots that are "way too deep" just over half the string diameter is all that is required. Deep un-rounded slots cause binding and all sorts of headaches. With this in mind one can see that a more shallow slot can easily be widened by rocking the file side to side. The other major problem is that the slot and the top of the nut do not follow the slope of the head stock. This and/or a crowned slot (the slot must be flat) can make a guitar sound like a sitar.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

You guys are awesome. I'm under the weather today but will respond more thoroughly later.

Jimmy, I appreciate what you're saying, but this is a new skill I'm trying to learn how to do. I have excellent luthiers in my area, but then I haven't learned anything. I've got the time, energy and resources to pursue this path, and I make a few mistakes these are on cheap guitars and the setup can be redone. Thank you, though, for your feedback.

BTW, folks, I don't mind spending extra to get what I need.

Thanks,
CL

Way (and I do mean WAY) back I had some flat needle files ground to dimension. They had the cut on the edges. Never liked anything but those files.

I spent several hundred dollars on set up tools: long straightedge, stew Mac guaged files, Grobet needle files for absolute refinement of the slots, stew-Mac string action ruler (which is freakin' awesome salsa) and the stew Mac string width ruler (you don't have to have this ruler but it really makes layout retard sandwiches, totally worth it), a scribe because I prefer accurate lines and I think it works better than pencil, feeler guages also from stew mac, and 3m polishing paper to polish everything up. I already had digital calipers, a file card, and a razor saw. Stew Mac is really the best source for tools for this work in my opinion. It does add up to a pretty penny but completely worth it. Then I bought a dozen bone nuts and started practicing on two junk guitars. It takes practice and concentration to get the horn shape correct but it seems to work well so far.

How to cut horn shaped slots here: http://www.lutherie.net/nuts.html

Have fun,

-j

Also of interest to you will be this post from another forum by David Collins. He magnified the resultant slots by 20X. Keep in mind that this post is five years old and Stew Mac files are different now. The post is quite revealing in the quality you'll get from lesser tools.

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-technic ... ost2477598

I'm told that the Grobet files for this purpose are no longer available and a search for them proved it.

-j

It's not quick or easy, but a jewelers saw along with a small round file is really all you need.
You can actually get away without the round file if you're willing to use old strings to round out the bottom of the slot.

_________________
A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

Grobets are excellent fles and we have some of them. About 6 years ago Stew-mac changed suppliers for the guaged files that were already pretty good but Grobet's were better back then. The new SM files we were a beta site for and put them though their paces and I have to tell you that the current crop of SM files is so very close to Grobets that they both are excellent now in my view.

I do prefer the shape of the handles (not that either actually have conventional handles mind you) for the SM ones and as someone who uses nut files many times daily my Grobets have all been wrapped in duct tape to pad the part in my hand. No biggie and I have wooden handles for the Grobets but never like the feel of the wooden handles being only pencil sized.

One last thing. We were never keen to do the CA and bone dust thing to fill nut slots because it never lasts very long and that is a deal breaker for us. So we got next to a dentist who is a client and he turned us on to a UV light and amalgum fillings in many colors and shades... SInce then we are acid etching, applying a UV cured bonding agent, and then the actual amalgum (in a matching color even for goober gobber from G. Giles with the green teeth... ). Dental fillings are way harder than CA and bone dust and nearly as hard as bone. They are tough on our files but either the Grobets or the SM files still work great even with dental fillings.

Nut files do wear out and I have on my list above me right now at my bench a reminder to get a new .028 Grobet or SM with the next order. But for most folks who are not doing over a thousand instruments anually a decent set of nut files should last you likely as long as you are loofering.

I'm fortunate too because both Dave and I love great tools if you have not noticed. So it's a no brainer for us to always have the best of the best if that's what we want. It's also such a pleasure to not have any concerns about not having the right tool for the job when we need it. As such we have no excuses for not doing great work and are never held back by lousy tools.

Jimmy I remeber when Dave took those photos and I think it was when we were beta testers for SM files.

The current Stew Mac files I just bought are dead ringers for the Grobets I already had. Hesh, are you sure they are not the manufacturers for StewMac's current offerings?

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Here's the last four Grobets I purchased about ten years ago right out of their catalog. One size both edges

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Hey Terry - When SM switched suppliers about 6 years or so ago although we were not privy to who's making their files now we had the impression that they were made in China but I don't know this for sure. They sure have a better cutting pattern though and I like them too.

Just did a brass but on a new Gretch and they worked like a charm!

My nuts suck less since I bought the proper files.
The best nut I made was using unbleached bone.
Don't know if that had anything to do with it.

_________________
wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

Unbleached bone is my favorite.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I've been doing just fine with a knife style needle file (about 5" long, not a tiny one), but seem to have misplaced it Not much place it could have gone considering the size of my shop, but it's doing a surprisingly good job of hiding. Maybe it's a sign that I should finally get some gauged nut files and see if they're as glorious as everyone says...

are the hosco as good as the SM? Any other recommendations in the UK? Hope nobody minds me tagging onto this thread.

If you want a cheap alternative there are some Pippin files on the UK auction site. Old stock Stubbs, a bit more refined than the one that LMI sells.

Thanks, Michael, in packs of six? I have to confess i dont really understand what a pippin file is!? They also sell packs of ten various needle files, I want the six pippin right? I know from your posts you must be very skilled at using hand tools and can use less specialised tools to get a great result. On the one hand I really like improving my hand tool skills, on the other hand if you don't have the skills it seems like you're more likely to do a good job with specialised tools. I used SM files the other day, best nut action I've ever played.